TRANSCRIPT – Shamanic Healing, Cancer & Plant Medicine Dietas | Susana Bustos

[EN9] Susana Bustos
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0:01 Lorna: Hello amazing changemakers. This is Lorna Liana and we’re here today for another episode of EntheoNation. We’re here with Susana Bustos, who is a psychotherapist, professor and an independent researcher of indigenous and entheogenic shamanic traditions of the Americas. Her main interests revolve around the interface between Western psychotherapy and traditional medicine, the healing potential of non-ordinary states of consciousness and the integration of those states into daily life. Susana lectures and works as a consultant internationally and she also holds a private practice in Berkeley, California. So today she will be speaking with us about the world of Peruvian vegetalismo. Susana thank you very much for joining us today. I love to understand what exactly it is vegetalismo?
0:53 Susana: Lorna hi. Wonderful to be with you. Thank you for inviting me to share with EntheoNation. Well Peruvian vegetalismo is a tradition, it’s a mestizo tradition and mixed-race tradition that evolved from indigenous cosmologies in the late 1800’s during the rubber boom in Peru. And it constituted itself as a doctoring tradition pretty much during twentieth century. Sorry, the rubber boom was in the late 1900’s. So I’m just talking about like the end of the nineteen hundreds and then twentieth century. So basically, you know, if I tell you about vegetalismo, about fifty years ago we had in around the port cities in the Amazon in Peru like these doctors working primarily for people who were coming from indigenous communities and migrating into the cities.
1:49 So the doctoring work has this conception of universe that is both concrete in material and spiritual at the same time. So we’re talking about remnants of indigenous cosmologies, animistic and there is a variety of different doctors and healers that fits specific things and work also with specific methods. So traditionally we had like people who were the “hueseros” who worked with bones and bone restoration. Then we have the “parteras” also who work with different plants to work to do labor.
2:27 Lorna: So like the midwives, traditional midwives?
2:29 Susana: Midwives, uh-huh. Then we had like people who work particularly with other water spirits and perfumes that were called the “aguateros” and they’re still alive. There are still some of them. We have a lot of evolution right now because of the interest of the west in medicine, ayahuasca medicine that they also work with.
2:50 So basically what I’m saying is that we had a diversity of different specialties within this doctoring tradition traditionally that has, that is becoming more and more reviews in like nowadays. And I would say that right now within the Peruvian vegetalismo we have like three main specialties that also are combined for doctoring. That are the purgas, the purging methods which means plants that are used in the form of brews to detoxify – they are emetic and and also diuretic and very specialist knowledge about how to use them and what for. Then we have the people who work particularly with dietas, plant diets but that’s also as I say that could be integrated like some curanderos work with the city of this technique and also others but these are the main ones. So the plant diets are also plant buds and barks of plantas maestras. So master plants.
4:02 Lorna: The teacher plants or the master plants?
4:04 Susana: Yes, exactly. And that are given for mainly two purposes. One could be like doctoring, so curing a particular sickness and then also for teaching, right? And we can like go deeper into that later. And then the third kind of method use is the work with ayahuasca. So traditionally, also I’m talking about forty years ago, the curanderos were the ones mainly taking the brew to diagnose the condition of the patient. And you know that now in Peru and also up road the medicine is taken also by the clients. So there have been a lot of changes lately.
4:49 Lorna: Okay, so this is really interesting. So it sounds like vegetalismo was a form of doctoring that emerged at the end of the nineteenth century beginning in the twentieth century. Am I understanding this correctly?
5:01 Susana: Yeah. That’s it.
5:04 Lorna: Okay. And then it split up in two. It’s got different professions within that overall practice of working with the plants. So you can specialized. I’ve always been intrigue by the work of the, you mentioned there were “aguateros”?
5:16 Susana: Yes.
5:17 Lorna: I’ve heard them also called “perfumeros” as well.
5:21 Susana: Yeah.
5:24 Lorna: Perfumers. Yeah, I would love to go back to the Amazon on the Peruvian side and explore that tradition as well like working with the fragrant plants and flowers. And then, let me see, and so then you mentioned there are three different ways of working within vegetalismo. There is the purging aspect, then there is the plant diet aspect, and then there is the work with the ayahuasca.
5:47 Susana: Right. That’s correct.
5:49 Lorna: Okay. And so it sounded like too back in the old days, maybe old days meaning a few decades ago, that it was primarily the shaman that took the ayahuasca to diagnose the sick patient that went to see him. Is that correct?
6:06 Susana: That’s correct. And also at that, talking also about it’s just a few decades ago, right? Ayahuasca brew, when it was taken by the client, it was normally called the purga, la purga. La purga means the purge. So the visionary component of – you know has to do with the additives to the liana, right? Where more reserved for the healer than for the client. For the client it was mainly about just detoxifying.
6:41 Lorna: That’s so interesting because nowadays we see these ayahuasca retreats that are being held by shamans with groups of at least a handful of people to twenty or thirty or forty people even at the time and with people that are actually not sick [laugh] that are going for some type of psychological and spiritual breakthroughs. So when did the ayahuasca retreat paradigm emerge?
7:09 Susana: Well you know I cannot tell you exactly. I really don’t know. What I do know is that, okay, there is like a mea culpa that Marlene Dobkin de Rios was an anthropologist who was probably one of the first ones talking about anthropological issues around vegetalismo right in the early seventies. She published this book which she just really talks about her publicizing this tradition and then getting the attention from westerners to start going down and experiencing the visionary aspect of the ayahuasca.
7:50 So, I think that if we trace back this to early seventies, at least from the anthropological perspective right? Medical anthropology and the impact that her writings had on people then we can say ‘well, maybe this started the change around the seventies more significantly and then we have Luna, we saw Luna in the eighties with his work, his dissertation work on vegetalismo that later got like really publicized. He participated all over the world like showing this tradition to other people and then his books on the visionary that’s a bit with Pablo Amaringo and his paintings. So I would say like seventies, eighties. And then the boom target like maybe in the early 2000s. Yeah.
8:45 Lorna: Wow. This is really interesting. Now, I’d love to understand, it sounds like vegetalismo, is that primarily a Peruvian tradition? I don’t really see so much of this cultural… I mean I do see on the Brazilian side.
9:05 Susana: Yeah.
9:06 Lorna: But it seems like there is certain characteristics of Peruvian vegetalismo that make it very distinctly vegetalismo as we understand the term versus other indigenous ways of working with plants and healing the parts of the Amazon. So can you help describe some of the aspects of healing under the vegetalismo traditions? If one were to go to Peru and have an experience of working with a curandero, what would one expect?
9:41 Susana: Well this is just very interesting question because it’s also how things have been changing and what I could even find fifteen years ago available and what I can find available now if I go down there, are different things. I just will tell you some differences okay? If I went there fifteen years ago and I tried to work with a traditional healer such as key choice speaker from the Provincia San Martin, right? I’m just thinking of a couple that I visited at that time. They would not having their record toward the difference between what is the mind and the body, right? So if I go there, they would treat me for physical illness or a spiritual illness like they would assess whether my condition has to do with something that’s primarily physical or if it’s due to a spirit, a harm that somebody like sent to me or if I trespass a rule or if a spirit visited me and wanted to do something to me or I got scared of him.
11:00 There are several classifications of sicknesses at that spiritual level. So they would work with me based on that, but there are no distinction as I say between the body and the mind. Right now when you go to curanderos they are much more knowledgeable about these differences. So whenever I teach about vegetalismo, I say, well this is a tradition that doesn’t have, that doesn’t distinguish between mind and body. Because it’s just they don’t have this dichotomy as embedded as we have them. But this has been changing. So you go down there and you have a like a depression or you’re like in an existential search for something and there are many people now available and understanding about what’s going on with you and they would give you plants for that. I don’t know if I’m clear with that evolution that’s happening.
12:06 Lorna: Do you think that this tradition is actually dying out or is it roaming and deepening just with more knowledge and categorization of plants and of course much more ayahuasca tourism and people going down to learn these ways? Do you, what do you see?
12:28 Susana: Well, that’s a very good question. I think that what we are seeing is a… first let me frame this. I think that shamanism, you know this is a shamanic base tradition, has survived so many millennia in humanity’s history because of its ability to integrate newness instead of cracking open or just dying because of encountering new cultures and new ideas. It’s very permeable tradition that are changing constantly. And I think that what we are seeing now, if we think also that this emerge and constituted itself as a kind of shamanic tradition in the late nineteen hundreds. It’s just that tradition that is evolving.
13:27 I don’t think it’s going to die. It’s just transforming. I don’t know how deeply it’s going to transform yet and I’m curious myself about what are the new recreations of it that are going to emerge from this encounter, like strong encounter with the west. There are many westerners now training in vegetalismo as well which is also something relatively new within the tradition itself, if we can even call it a tradition. Tradition if you are like one hundred years old that’s a tradition, right?
14:06 Lorna: Interesting. I almost kind of see this as an involving apprenticeship with the plants, so to speak. And in some of the other interviews I’ve had so far with for example with Rak Razam and with Dennis McKenna it almost seems like the jungle is wanting to make her presence known more and more in the west in order to just wake us up because we definitely need to wake up before we end up destroying this planet with our really wasteful and destructive, environmentally destructive waste.
14:47 It’s an interesting synergy that I’m seeing with the old like culture of the Amazon and then how it’s evolving through western influences as well. I do think it’s a good thing too that more westerners are going down there to train because at least it’s becoming more about just the ayahuasca as the one way to heal. I’m curious to know with your experience working and researching vegetalismo down in the Amazon. But first of all I’d love to ask you what brought you down there? What inspired you to go down to study these traditions? And then what have you seen with regards to working with the different plants versus with just solely with ayahuasca?
15:44 Susana: Yeah. Well, basically what brought me down was, this was like fifteen, sixteen years ago, I was in Chile, still in Chile, I’m Chilean originally. Learning about and working and training in particular techniques to expand consciousness and to work with healing in expanded states of consciousness. So I was working on that and I came across ayahuasca several times. And I have a very, at first experience with ayahuasca in a non-traditional setting in Chile with people that I knew from another country, not Peru. And it was a very long journey. A very deep one, very transformational one. And it opened up a kundalini rising that was very, very strong with seizures that lasted for, they were very strong the first six to ten months and then they started to go down but it lasted, the process was like four years. So I worked with people that I knew to support this that happened. As a result it was directly linked to the ceremony that I had. And after about four months of working intensively and just like trying to get over what was triggered, I had a blockage that I couldn’t overcome so that’s why it was so strong. I decided to go to Peru. At that time I was working at a governmental level with drug abuse prevention programs and I had heard of Takiwasi, this drug abuse prevention, this drug abuse rehabilitation center in Tarapóto in Peru. And I said well, I need to go where I can be treated. And something went wrong in this ceremony. I mean what’s happening with me, I cannot resolve this situation. So basically what I’m trying to say Lorna I went to Peru the first time to experience this tradition not because of wanting to experience it but because I was sick and I was looking for somebody who was knowledgeable who could like help me out basically.
18:09 So I arrived in Takiwasi and I was so fortunate that the first person I saw there was Don Solón Tello Lozano who is a very famous old curandero who was there at Takiwasi at that time and I told him my story and he treated me during a week intensively. And the results of the treatment and the whole context and the way that he held everything were so deep and so healing for my condition that I felt inside me that there was something here that this tradition was offering that I needed to explore more. 18:54 So since then I started going to Takiwasi first and then like looking into the healers that were in that area, I’m talking about Tarapóto and Chazuta, Lamas, you know that area in the Provincia San Martín. And then later I came to the States and I was able to work for my PhD research in the area of Pucallpa with, particularly with one curandero, but also with others. So I think that this is an amazing tradition that has a lot of possibilities and it’s much broader than just ayahuasca work. And that’s the beauty of it as well. And it also has its challenges. We sometimes think of ayahuasca work or the vegetalismo work or any other tradition sa a sanitized type of spiritual type of traditions. Basically in ways of working there are a lot of dark things also around there and challenges many levels that we can also address later. But if you want to I can like go to the second question which was what do you get with the work with other plants that aren’t much as ayahuasca.
20:18 Lorna: Yeah, totally because what I noticed in Brazil for example it’s almost kind of like if you have any condition at all, just drink some ayahuasca or drink some daime. And on one hand it’s kind of I see ayahuasca as a very powerful master plant and there’s so much deep healing that comes with working with this particular plant. But I’m not so sure if I would go as far as to say that this plant is going to heal me of everything. So I’m curious to know what kinds of health conditions and plant diets might be appropriate. What kind of plant diets might be appropriate for certain health conditions?
20:57 Susana: Well there are like so many different plants and every curandero will work with the plants of he himself or his maestro has worked with or has dieted. So I’m saying that it’s not just about the plants, it’s about the relationship of the curandero with those plants. And this is very important also as a distinctive aspect of the tradition which is you basically don’t treat the plants as objects, as medicines separated from you, you develop a relationship with the spirit of the plant in the way that the via regia to do that for the curandero is to diet that plant and commune and learn from the teachings that the plant is giving you. So in that way we are talking about an intimacy of connection in acknowledging of the sentient of the otherness, the intelligence of the plant within yourself and by ingesting the plant you also make yourself a greenhouse of the plant and you can keep it alive by different means.
22:10 Every curandero will have a bunch of plants that they know better because they have dieted them and they used them for particular conditions. So what my maestro in Pucallpa for example will use to treat cancer for example would be different with somebody from Chazuta. And also in the different regions of the Amazon you find different plants and different trees. So it’s not just the same, there is a diversity there. But you asked me about different conditions, there are plants to treat from cancer to hepatitis to kidney issues to lung conditions and as you’re saying within this tradition, it’s not just about take ayahuasca and you’re going to be cured, it’s like okay, this is a bark that you have to drink as a medicine icarado, so that it’s “charged” with its song for a particular amount of time. And in between you might be able, if you’re strong enough to take ayahuasca as well just go deeper into the roots of why are you sick, some treatments may involve purging as well, and some treatments may just involve water that has been icarada, that has been charged with icaros – with these shamanic songs – because your condition is so weak, you’re so weak in your body that you cannot have even a bark, a remedy. I have seen an amazing recovery of a person with a tumor in the hypophysis just with icaro during twenty one days.
24:05 Lorna: Where?
24:06 Susana: On the hypophysis.
24:09 Lorna: Where is the hypophysis?
24:12 Susana: The hypophysis is like a little organ that’s in the brain like in the center of the brain.
24:19 Lorna: The pituitary gland or..?
24:22 Susana: It’s not the pituitary gland. It’s another gland but it’s close to it.
24:26 Lorna: Oh interesting. I think I remember the story. Yeah, I think it might, I recall when you and I were down in Pucallpa.
24:35 Susana: Exactly.
24:36 Lorna: At Mayantuyacu, which is very, very beautiful place next to a geothermal river. Working with the shaman that you were studying with all that time. Yes, so I’m curious to know, you saw very positive results from that. It has been so many years since I’ve heard this story. How’s your patient?
24:59 Susana: She is doing fabulous. Actually she is coming to visit in February.
25:05 Lorna: Wow. I remember she was so sick.
25:08 Susana: Yeah, she was very, very sick.
25:11 Lorna: Oh my gosh. And has the tumor completely, disappeared completely?
25:16 Susana: Yeah, this is what I was telling you. She was treated as you might remember just with agua icarada because she was so weak and she has developed also like a secondary diabetes due to this tumor that was like pressing some areas of the brain. So she was same thing constantly because the insulin levels were up and down and after twenty one days where she had basically agua icarada some plant box primarily with flowers. And then she participated in ayahuasca ceremonies but as a participant so she got the curing, individual curing during the ceremony but she was not taking the ayahuasca herself. She went back home to Chile and she had a scan and other things and there was no tumor anymore and no signs of diabetes. So she as completely cured and the physicians didn’t know what happened and they were like ‘please tell us what was the medical product called here?’ and she said ‘I don’t know what happened to me, I just drank water.’
26:37 Lorna: She didn’t even drink other plant medicines?
26:41 Susana: No.
26:42 Lorna: That is fascinating.
26:45 Susana: Yeah. So this is also part of the tradition which is the icaros. And we’re talking about these shamanic melodies where when they are really brought to the healer during dieting process, during the learning apprenticeship process, or also during ayahuasca ceremonies you can also learn some icaros that that kind of channeled from the plant world to you. They have a quality that captures kind of the essence of that plant being-ness in the way that I have come to understand it. In a way that you as a healer have incorporated that plant within yourself. So it has kind of a living intelligence that when you charge as a healer a brew that you have prepared or water with those songs, then you are embedding that water or that brew with the life essence. So you’re making a medicine.
28:00 Lorna: That is really intriguing.
28:04 Susana: Yeah. There are many things. We can talk forever.
28:09 Lorna: I know, I know. So I want to ask you because you mentioned there was a process of working with the plants is actually a process of getting to know the spirit and developing or cultivating an intimacy with the plants. And so how does one do that? For example I had heard that every plant has its song and one of the ways that you get to know the plant is to learn its song. So can you tell us more about how we can cultivate an intimacy with a healing plant?
28:44 Susana: What I can tell you how it’s done over there basically during the apprenticeship time, I talked already about the plant diets, right? A plant diet has different levels and different ways of being done but the most extreme one that is used for apprenticeship and also in cases of like strong disease is to isolate a person into a hut, in monte, we call it monte in a jungle. It’s an open hut normally just a roof on top and you have a hammock there and you drink your plant and you reduce your diet to the minimum which is normally plantain, rolls of plantain and a little bit of rice and water. No salt, no sugar. You barely see people, you just see the healer who comes with the food or somebody who’s coming with the food during the time that you’re up there and that’s it. You also avoid any sexual contact during that time or any sexuality with yourself. You are just like in this communion with the plant for a particular time frame.
30:04 So what happens during plant diets and have been following at least one hundred diet processes, particularly at Takewasi that are, I have been working there as a clinical supervisor and I just came back just a year ago from being a year and a half there working. Particularly there what I saw is that during the eight days diet that they do. And the diets could last much longer. They could last like three months, four months, six months. It depends. And also four days. But the minimum that I had seen start working in this communion that we’re talking about is eight days. What happens is that slowly you go into a process of detoxing like the first days you’re like craving food and you feel you sweat a lot, you have… very quiet normally. As you start drinking you plant and going deeper and deeper, you go into what I call a state of transparency which is making your growth way of being into something more subtle and subtle.
31:25 The distinction between you and the environment, between you and the jungle, start getting blurry. So it’s like you enter slowly into a dreamlike state. You’re not consuming salt, so that’s also I think that plays a big part in this feeling that you have in this state of being that you start entering. And then you start getting synchronicities happening like for example you’re working with intense fear about your past and then you get bats in your temple. And then you’re like okay. This is just amplified but it’s like this synchronicities of nature talking you and telling you things and you just get it. You’re getting teachings right away from what’s happening around you that are in tune with what you are working through. And then as time goes by too you get like whispers. You start hearing things not in a psychotic type of way but just like feeling certain things that come through your ears sometimes, sometimes you go into this deep stupors and you get kind of a very vivid dream as if you were there with somebody and that somebody is teaching you something and you’d know that somebody is related in some way to your, the plant that you are taking. You don’t have any doubt about that whether you come from Germany and don’t have any experience with anything or you are a local.
33:13 These are what I have seen in the practice. So in these plant diets, during these plant diets there are certain people who get a melody, a song that normally starts like repeating itself. It’s a melody that you hear it in the back of your mind and then it gets more and more bothering because you cannot get it out of your mind and then until you pay attention to it and then until you are able to sing it. And then normally after that the words come but it’s usual to have the melody come first. Sometimes also you have this songs coming in dreams and you wake up with the whole entire thing in your mind, the whole song and as I say this is for some people and for some people it doesn’t happen but the process of getting intimate with the plant and making yourself as I say this container for it. Curanderos there say once you have dieted a plant, the plant lives in you forever. It’s up to you to keep it alive or just to have it with you still minimum but it’s going to be with you until you die.
34:34 Lorna: That’s quite beautiful actually because in a way it’s like you have this guardian spirit with you at all time.
34:43 Susana: Yeah, exactly.
34:45 Lorna: Well I would love to keep exploring this topic. I’m sure there’s so much that we can talk about. But I do want to leave you with two questions as were coming up to the end of this segment. So I’m curious to know, do you think vegetalismo has the ability like these practices have the ability to cure cancer? Because cancer is probably one of the number one diseases that we in the modern world are having to grapple with. And I’m curious to know because I’ve heard plenty of account of successful, of shaman successfully curing cancer with Amazonian plant medicines, what have you seen in addition to this patient that you’ve worked with whose brain tumor essentially went away, what is your thoughts on the potential of vegetalismo to help us cure cancer?
35:47 Susana: Well, I have seen, I’m just going to talk from experience because from the practical work, I have my husband and I like going down people to do healing work to the Amazon every year with Juan Flores who is our maestro. I have brought quite a few people already either recovering from cancer or still with cancer. And our maestro works with ayahuma which is a tree that grows by the water. And he prepares ayahuma with the bark of that tree. We have seen very good results with that. Depending on the condition of the person you have to just keep drinking it for a few months with also dietary restrictions and energetic restrictions. So you will avoid certain things so that you’re not… because you are going to this state of transparency anyway when you are dieting a plant. So you need to take care of your energetic field as well and they tell you what to do and what not to do.
37:07 We have seen very good results. We haven’t been rigorous in just following up with people over the years except for a few people. But the people that we have taken down, I would say that I have followed that personally. Maybe we have four or five cases so they have followed up with no relapse into cancer. Then I also have seen two other cases besides the first one of the brain tumor that also have had remission of the tumor and no coming back of the tumor. With plants that are not necessarily meant for cancer but after an assessment of what the person is curing emotionally, we had decided with the healers to, I’m talking about Takiwasi, to keep the person for a diet process like a particular plant to work through something emotional in their lives and we have seen remission of tumors at the brain level with no coming back of the tumor at least in two years. This is as much as I know. And I’m talking about two more cases that I already know besides of Carolina’s. So that’s as much as I can tell you from my experience. I think that one we’re talking about cancer, we’re talking about multi-causal sickness that has multiple possibilities of why it was conformed and constituted into a sickness. And I think there is a potential in vegetalismo to address this successfully. I have seen that but I don’t think that there is one way of doing it within vegetalismo itself. It’s probably a lot about the connection that the person has with the healer and the healer with the person and the understanding of the plant work and what the person needs.
39:17 Lorna: Great. Thank you so much for sharing that. So if a person wanted to explore vegetalismo these days, what are some cautions or pitfalls that you would point out so that they can be aware and have a positive experience if they go down to Peru?
39:36 Susana: I would say that first understand that you are not going into a tradition that is a spiritual tradition like if you go to, I don’t know like India to an ashram, or something like that. You’re going into a doctoring tradition and that there are a lot of people offering ayahuasca down there now because of the demand being so big. So you know we are talking about a poor country, and this has become a business in many regions of Peru. So be careful with whom are you working with then why do you want to engage in this? What is your real purpose? Is it just explore? You were talking about ayahuasca tourism before, or are you seriously looking for some healing, if you’re seriously looking for some healing, then be clear about what are you looking for and how long can you stay. Because it’s not magical. It just takes a time, it takes a commitment. It is not easy to go through this treatment. If you have to be purging four times a week, if you have to be during ayahuasca ceremony and on top of that and being in isolation for example for a long time. It’s not easy. So be prepared to face the challenges and then…
41:09 Lorna: Especially all the bugs.
41:11 Susana: Yeah, especially all the bugs. Exactly, exactly. I think that one’s also most challenging.
41:18 Lorna: Oh gosh, yeah. Terrible. I think my worst, like my worst pest that I had to deal with down there were the chiggers. I think they’re called lisangos or isangos down in Peru. The no-seeums in the grass.
41:36 Susana: No, those are the- no, the isangos are the big ant.
41:40 Lorna: Oh, okay.
41:42 Susana: An inch long and those are- I’m missing right now the word for that, in Spanish.
41:49 Lorna: Yeah they’re the invisible, really itchy creatures that tend to migrate…
41:52 Susana: You’re, Lorna you’re right, it’s the isango, that’s so. Yeah. I was confusing them with the izulas. The isulas are the big ants.
42:01 Lorna: So the isangos like to migrate to the warmest, moistest part of your body.
42:08 Susana: And scratch yourself to death.
42:11 Lorna: Oh my god. Wow, so any other things to watch out for. So it’s not easy, there’s lots of bugs.
42:19 Susana: Exactly. You also need to know where are you going. Be clear about what’s your purpose. Learn Spanish. You can be misled to people who are not, who don’t know much and they just want to sell you a product. Right? Be careful if you’re a woman, there are also lot of people who are doing ceremonies, conducting ceremonies we’re they’re talking about womanizers before, there are transgressions also at that level that you want to avoid if you’re- if you want to avoid them. Right? Also if you are coming with big conditions, like people with big depressions. If you have a psychotic breakdown, for example if you have an extreme things, don’t think that you’re going to find- don’t put all your moneys in to going down there to find a magical cure because it doesn’t work like that, you just really have to do your homework in terms of knowing what the condition is about, what they can offer you and who can really provide that for you down there. Be knowledgeable about what are you seeking and who is available there. Ask, there’s so many blogs now that you can ask things, people would happily respond to you. Get in touch with experts here before you embark on something like that. If you have a health condition. This is what it took years to me right now Lorna. I don’t know if you’re thinking of something else to with your experience.
44:05 Lorna: So how can people best stay in touch with you Susana?
44:08 Susana: Through our blog. Its and I think that my email is not working right now. They’re beginning to hoping to restore it back in the next few days. Otherwise there’s another email that you can connect with me with which is tutibu is T as in Tango, U, T as in Tango, I, B as in Boy, U at
44:42 Lorna: Wow, excellent, so I suppose then if people have questions that they wanted to get clear on many of the things that you were suggesting in terms of who to go to, what they want to be treated for, then could they go to and ask you.
45:00 Susana: Yes, yeah, absolutely.
45:02 Lorna: Wonderful, wonderful. Thank you so much for joining us today
on EntheoNation and sharing with us your story and helping us to understand and how we can explore the world of Vegetalismo and cultivate a relationship with the plants. You have a beautiful day now Susana. Thank you so much.
45:23 Susana: Thank you so much Lorna for doing this its fabulous and initiative. So all the best.
45:29 Lorna: It’s so great to reconnect with you.
45:32 Susana: Yeah, Bye.